Light from the 'Prince of Darkness' -- Interview
Long before he gave us the Valerie Plame Affair, veteran syndicated political columnist and TV pundit Robert Novak was causing trouble for powerful people and covering the biggest stories in Washington, D.C. His new book, "Prince of Darkness," is a candid memoir of his personal life and his 50-year career as an insider who not only made news with his journalism but had close encounters with presidents Johnson, Kennedy and Reagan. Novak, a conservative whose column regularly appears in the Trib, was in New York City when I talked to him on Monday by telephone:
Q: Who is the book aimed at and what does it say about how politics and journalism work together in Washington?
A: I think I have two audiences. One audience -- a very small audience, which wonít make the book a very big seller -- is the principal audience, and that is people who are in the game: politicians, political consultants, journalists, people involved in the political process. It will show some things that they didnít realize happened and some things -- after all, Iím pretty old -- that they werenít around for.
The second audience is people who are interested in public affairs, interested in the great game of politics and donít know anything about it. I try to reveal some of the mystery about how a journalist works to show them what great fun I had doing it but also the problems -- the mistakes I made, the successes Iíve had and the interaction between the people in government and journalists. I try to peel away some of the mystery and dispense with some of the evasions and untruths that Iím afraid people in my trade have spread about the way they actually function.
Q: Is there anything really juicy in this book that others might not want you to reveal?
A: The reason I think Iím called "The Prince of Darkness" is not that I am evil but that I say uncomfortable things and make people uncomfortable and am highly critical. I think Iím much more critical of public figures than perhaps they are used to. For example, Gerald Ford got tremendous kudos when he died in his eulogies. Iím pretty tough on Gerald Ford as a poor and incompetent president. Iím even tougher on Nixon and Carter. Johnson is starting to come back, too, and Iím pretty tough on him.
There also are some things in the book that people donít know. For years, people said I made up a quote about a liberal senator saying of George McGovern that he was going to be in big trouble -- as he was -- when middle America, particularly Catholic middle America, discovers that he is for amnesty, abortion and the legalization of marijuana, which people turned into the "Triple-A Candidate: Amnesty, Abortion and Acid."
They said I made that up but finally I was able to say after the person died that it was really (Missouri Sen.) Thomas Eagleton, his sometime running mate, who had said that about him to me. Thatís going to make some people mad. Some of the things I say about (Reagan adviser and U.N. Ambassador) Jeane Kirkpatrick -- who I called selfish and arrogant in refusing to give me permission to use a quote where I was being sued for liable -- friends of hers may not like either.
Q: If there had been no Valerie Plame affair, how would you have started the book?
A: Thatís a great question. I would have started the book with an incident where I found out that Helmut Sonnenfeldt, a consulate at the State Department, had given a speech to ambassadors in Europe in which he said the organic union of the Soviet Union and satellite states was permanent and we ought to strengthen that union rather than try to undermine it. It was just a terrible thing to say for the anti-communists and the ethnic Americans.
And then in the second presidential debate with Jimmy Carter, after being told for months that he had to repudiate the Sonnenfeldt quote ... President Ford got it completely wrong. He committed what I called "a policy spoonerism." Instead of saying that we didnít recognize Soviet control of Eastern Europe, he said they donít have any control of Eastern Europe -- they donít control Poland. A lot of people think that quote lost Ford the election. Thatís the way I would have started the book. Not as exciting maybe as Valerie Plame but important.
Q: Is there any great lesson from the Valerie Plame affair or was it really just another typical Washington scandal?
A: I think the latter.I think the lesson is that when you take an issue and you get a lot of the news media and the politicians and other people insisting itís something more than what it is, it takes on a life of its own. People donít really want to know the facts. They donít want to know that I was against the war in Iraq. They donít want to know that deputy secretary of state Richard Armitage, who leaked Valerie Plameís identity to me, was against the war -- so it couldnít have been a plot to discredit war critics. They donít want those facts. There was ... a wire story the other day that came out which said that Karl Rove was my principal source. I think what it shows is that people -- particularly the news media -- will turn a fact into something that itís really not in order to serve an ideological purpose.
Q: Were there any scoops or revelations that were too hot to put into your book?
A: If you read in the small type, in the authorís note at the end of the book, I said that myoriginal manuscript, if it had been printed as a book, God forbid, would have run 1,400 pages. The book is certainly big enough -- over 600 pages -- and people ask me, "Whatís in those 800 other pages?" Well, there are no great revelations. Itís more of the same; more anecdotes and some analysis and details. Iíve had a long life and a long career. Iím very thankful for that and I thought Iíd just write everything I wanted to write and cut it later. That added about a year to the preparation time for the book but thatís the way I did it.
Q: You say that stirring up strife is the proper role for a journalist ...
A: Well, my role, anyway.
Q: OK. Is there too much or too little strife being stirred up in D.C. these days?
A: Iím going to say something that most people would disagree with: Iím going to say too little strife because thereís too much conventional thinking, too much group-think among journalists in Washington. Certainly they stir up strife on criticism of the Bush administration. But there are a lot of things going on in Congress, and I donít think there is a very good job being done of stirring up strife there. My late partner, Rowland Evans, more elegant than I, said once that what we do is intercept the lines of communication between politicians. I donít think there is enough of that being done.
Q: You were interested in both making news by digging up scoops for your column and advocating a political point of view, which was a decidedly nonliberal point of view. Were you being as fair and balanced a journalist as you should have been?
A: I think so. Obviously, the things that I was interested in I tended more to write about than other matters. But I still will write things that will seem to go against the grain of things that I stand for. A lot of times I get calls from people associated with this White House and they say, "Why are you being so rough on 'em? Arenít you hurting the cause?" Well, itís not my cause. My cause is the country and I want the president to succeed. But Iím not on his staff. And Iím not a yes man for him. So I think I have been fair and balanced in that respect. Does it mean that Iím going to write things that take the argument that tax cuts are bad and that we need more government? No, Iím not going to do that. But if the president does badly, as he often does, and I get exclusive information on it, I write about it.
Q: How do you describe your politics?
A: I consider myself a conservative. I say so in the book.I say Iíve moved farther to the right. I am for a limited government, and I made clear in the book that I am for limited government in our international adventures, spilling the blood of our young people and our fortune. I think thatís a conservative position. Iím obviously a conservative in limited government. But also I think itís a conservative position to be for free trade and liberal on immigration. I donít like government restrictions. A lot of people think those are not conservative positions but I think they are.
Q: You had a gloomy attitude as a young reporter -- and thatís where the original nickname "Prince of Darkness" came from -- but itís hard to believe that you have become less gloomy in the last 20 or 30 years in D.C.
A: Well, believe it or not, I have (laughs). There are two things: One is the supply-side agenda, which I didnít understand the need for and I never expected to happen. I believe itís been a blessing for our economy and has prevented the kind of chronic economic slumps that we had all through the Eisenhower administration.
The other thing that has made me less gloomy is the destruction of the Soviet Union. People talk about Russia today going back to the Soviet Union. Thatís not the Soviet Union. The winning of the Cold War is just something I didnít expect to see. As I said in the book, in the second chapter, I read "Witness" by Whittaker Chambers when I was a young Army officer and it really changed my mind. Chambers was very gloomy. He said when he switched from communism to anti-communism, he thought he had switched from the winning side to the losing side.That was the view I took. But I think, too, that the fact that I have become a Catholic convert has made me less gloomy, less fearful and more faithful.
Q: As a Catholic, that means youíre looking to the real, real, long run, right?
A: Thatís correct.
Q: What was your greatest scoop?
A: I think my greatest scoop was when I went to China in 1978 and reported on the "Democracy Wall" rebellion and got the interview with (Chinaís top ruler) Deng Xiaoping.
Q: Who was your greatest source?
A: Probably the guy who gave me the most documents was a conservative operative named John Carbaugh, a former staffer for Sen. Jesse Helms. He didnít just give me tips; he gave me documents.
Q: Of all the people youíve dealt with, does anyone stand out as "most principled"? Not so much as a source or as a wise guy, but someone who thought more like you did and wasnít changed or seduced by the power?
A: Thatís an excellent question and itís hard to come up with an answer, because "principle" is not a common commodity among politicians. I donít mean that sarcastically. I think that is a fact.I believe in term limits because I can think of a lot of people who started off as very principled but they kind of fell off in a short amount of time. But somebody I think was very principled and always convincing -- and I disagreed with him on his domestic policy and all his issues -- was Sen. Henry M. Jackson, "Scoop" Jackson, of Washington. He was what they called a "Cold War liberal." He was a strong anti-communist, strong on national defense, a very great battler against excessive arms-control treaties. And of course he was a liberal domestically and never wavered from that. I think he would have made a great Democratic president, but he never made it.
Q: How does the older, wiser "Prince of Darkness" see the future of the country?
A: Well, my future on this Earth is limited (laughs).Iím 76 years old. From my standpoint, I see the long Republican realignment ending and going into a period of Democratic supremacy. I think there will be a lot of mistakes and a lot of bad things done. But I do believe the American people are really up to making the best of their politicians.
When I am given a chance to address college students, I always tell them, "Always love your country but never trust your government." I believe that. And I believe that is the view the American people take and thatís why I think weíll still be the shining city on the hill.
Bill Steigerwald is a columnist at the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. E-mail Bill at firstname.lastname@example.org.© Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, All Rights Reserved.
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